Journals of the Senate
51 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2002, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 10
Thursday, October 24, 2002
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Lucie Pépin, Speaker pro tempore
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Cook, Cools, Cordy, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Gustafson, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kolber, Lapointe, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, Lynch-Staunton, Mahovlich, Meighen, Milne, Morin, Murray, Pépin, Phalen, Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, *Comeau, Cook, Cools, Cordy, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Fraser, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Graham, Gustafson, *Hays, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, *Kirby, Kolber, *Kroft, Lapointe, Lawson, LeBreton, Léger, *Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Mahovlich, Meighen, Milne, Morin, Murray, *Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, Rossiter, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, *Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
PRAYERS
SPEAKER PRO TEMPORE'S RULING
Yesterday, October 23, Senator Murray rose on a question of privilege to object to the announced intention of the Social Affairs, Science and Technology Committee to deposit a report with the Clerk of the Senate this Friday. Despite an admitted authorization from the Senate granting the committee this power, Senator Murray argued that this was not the intent of this authorization and that the report ought to be tabled as soon as possible while the Senate is sitting since, as he put it, the report ` `is ready.''
By way of reply, Senator Kirby, the chair of the Social Affairs Committee, expressed sympathy with Senator Murray's position. He went on to explain, however, that the 300 page report is with the printer and that bound copies sufficient for distribution will be ready Thursday, that is today, probably late in the day. Despite the circumstances of this case, Senator Kirby suggested that the practice of tabling reports with the Clerk should be studied by the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament so that any ambiguities with respect to it could be clarified.
Several other Senators made comments on the merits of the alleged question of privilege. Senator Bolduc explained that a report is normally seen by Senators first and that, in this instance, since the report may not be ready before Thursday afternoon after the Senate rises, it should not be released until the Senate next sits, likely next Tuesday. Senator Lynch-Staunton, the Leader of the Opposition, echoed this view. As he put it: "I think the committee has an obligation to those who mandated the terms of reference to report first to the Chamber.'' This position was also supported by Senator Cools, who proposed, like Senator Kinsella afterwards, that the matter be resolved by allowing Senator Kirby to table one copy of the report when it is available before the end of the sitting today, Thursday.
At the conclusion of these exchanges, I agreed to take the matter under advisement. Given the pressing nature of the situation, it would be inappropriate to defer a decision on the prima facie merits of this question of privilege. Accordingly, I am prepared to rule now.
Honourable Senators, I think it only right to inform you that I was a member of the Social Affairs Committee during the last session and I was just reappointed to it for this session until I resigned yesterday.
Rule 43 of the Rules of the Senate states that a question of privilege must involve "a matter directly concerning the privileges of the Senate, of any committee, or any Senator.'' In addition, it must "be raised to correct a grave and serious breach.'' Do these criteria apply in this case? Senator Murray has acknowledged that the Senate itself did confer on the Social Affairs Committee the authority, notwithstanding usual practices, to deposit any report with the Clerk if the Senate is not then sitting. This permission was granted less than two weeks ago, on October 8. The Senator maintains that it was only intended to apply when the Senate was facing a prolonged adjournment. However, there is nothing in the motion to explain the circumstances or qualifications by which this permission is to be exercised. In addition, there are recent precedents to suggest that a prolonged adjournment is not a necessary requisite or precondition. The most relevant of these precedents occurred on April 18 this year and it involved the Social Affairs Committee. As recorded in the Journals of the Senate that day at page 1425 Senator Kirby moved the consideration of the seventeenth report of the Committee which "he had deposited with the Clerk earlier today.'' Although Senator Murray commented on the event at the time, no objection was raised. A similar incident occurred the previous month. This one involved a report of the National Security and Defence Committee. A complaint was made, though not as a point of order, about the fact that the media had knowledge about a report that had been deposited with the Clerk before members of the Senate.
Honourable Senators, aside from these precedents, there is another more fundamental reason to find that there is no prima facie question of privilege. To be valid, a question of privilege or contempt must involve, as I have already explained, a grave or serious breach of our parliamentary practices. It has been argued that Senators are entitled to receive the report of one of its committees first. Normally, this is true. It is admitted in the standard parliamentary authorities that the premature release of a committee report can constitute a question of privilege or a contempt. In this case, the Senate, exercising its undoubted privilege of governing its own internal proceedings, has waived this right, or at least qualified it, by granting permission to the committee to deposit any report with the Clerk. The Senate cannot now pretend that the exercise of this permission is a breach of the privileges of the Senate. To think that it can, is to contend that one privilege can trump another. The Senate has given license to a committee to deposit its reports with the Clerk whenever the Senate is not sitting. This permission was granted without qualification. Under these circumstances, I find that there can be no prima facie question of privilege and I so rule.
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Banks tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 2/37-124S):
THURSDAY, October 24, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources has the honour to table its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee, which was authorized by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination and consideration of such legislation and other matters as were referred to it, reports, pursuant to Rule 104, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the First Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament are as follows:
1. With respect to its examination and consideration of legislation:
Professional Services $ 7,765 Transportation — Other, Miscellaneous $ 572 Witness Expenses $ 34,792 Total $ 43,129
2. With respect to its study on issues relating to energy, the environment and natural resources:
Professional Services $ 44,241 Transportation $ 270,443 Other, Miscellaneous $ 13,957 Witness Expenses $ 8,697 Total $ 337,338
Your Committee reviewed eight (8) bills (C-10, C-27, C-3, C-33, C-39, C-4, S-15 and S-18), receiving evidence from 147 witnesses during 40 meetings lasting more than 60 hours.
Your Committee also had an order of reference to examine issues relating to energy, the environment and natural resources generally in Canada, on which it held 16 meetings and heard more than 35 hours of evidence from 62 witnesses. Under this order of reference, your Committee studied a number of specific issues, including the continuation and completion of the study on Nuclear Reactor Safety.
Your Committee travelled on a fact-finding visit to Paris and Vienna in October 2001 as well as San Francisco and Sacramento in February 2002. In addition your Committee sent delegations of members to 7 conferences.
Your Committee submitted 15 reports in relation to its work.
Respectfully submitted,
TOMMY BANKS
Chair
The Honourable Senator LeBreton, Deputy Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, presented its Second Report (budget—special study on the health care system).
(The Report is printed as an Appendix)
The Honourable Senator LeBreton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Meighen, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Bacon tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 2/37-125S):
THURSDAY, October 24, 2002
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to table its
SECOND REPORT
Your Committee reports, pursuant to Rule 104, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the First Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament are as follows:
Professional and Other Services $ 1,227 Transportation and Communications — All Other Expenditures — Total $ 1,227
Respectfully submitted,
LISE BACON
Chair
The Honourable Senator Bacon presented the following:
THURSDAY, October 24, 2002
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
THIRD REPORT
Your Committee recommends that an increase of 2.3% to the salary ranges of the Senate senior management employees (Senior Executive Group level 1-3 and Middle Management Group level 2) be awarded effective April 1, 2002.
Respectfully submitted,
LISE BACON
Chair
The Honourable Senator Bacon moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kolber, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Kolber tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 2/37-126S):
THURSDAY, October 24, 2002
The Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce has the honour to table its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee, which was authorized by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination and consideration of such legislation and other matters as were referred to it, reports, pursuant to Rule 104 of the rules, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the First Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament are as follows:
1. With respect to its examination and consideration of legislation:
Professional and Other Services $ 18,582 Transportation and Communication $ 1,611 All Other Expenditures $ 8,400 Witness Expenses $ 11,637 Total $ 40,230
2. With respect to its special study on the financial system in Canada authorized by the Senate on Tuesday, March 20, 2001, and Wednesday, March 6, 2002:
Professional and Other Services $ 41,266 Transportation and Communication $ 385 All Other Expenditures $ 2,700 Witness Expenses — Total $ 44,351
Your Committee examined 14 bills (C-8, C-13, C-22, C-23, C-26, C-31, C-41, C-47, S-11, S-16, S-17, S-30, S-31 and S-40).
Within the framework of its examination of the present state of Canada's financial system, one study dealt with "Our Shared Border: Facilitating the Movement of Goods and People in a Security Environment'' and the other with "An Environment for Prosperity: Facilitating the Growth of Small and Medium-Sized Businesses in Canada.''
During the session, your Committee held 56 meetings (90.2 hours), heard 242 witnesses and submitted 19 reports in relation to its work.
Respectfully submitted,
E. LEO KOLBER
Chair
The Honourable Senator Kolber, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce, presented its Second Report (Bill S-2, An Act to implement an agreement, conventions and protocols concluded between Canada and Kuwait, Mongolia, the United Arab Emirates, Moldova, Norway, Belgium and Italy for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion and to amend the enacted text of three tax treaties) without amendment.
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a third reading at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Motions
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C.:
That the documents entitled: "Proposals to amend the Parliament of Canada Act (Ethics Commissioner) and other Acts as a consequence'' and "Proposals to amend the Rules of the Senate and the Standing Orders of the House of Commons to implement the 1997 Milliken-Oliver Report'', tabled in the Senate on October 23, 2002, be referred to the Standing Committee on Rules, Procedures and the Rights of Parliament.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Keon, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Morin, seconded by the Honourable Senator Hubley:
That the following Address be presented to Her Excellency the Governor General of Canada:
To Her Excellency the Right Honourable Adrienne Clarkson, Chancellor and Principal Companion of the Order of Canada, Chancellor and Commander of the Order of Military Merit, Governor General and Commander-in-Chief of Canada.
MAY IT PLEASE YOUR EXCELLENCY:
We, Her Majesty's most loyal and dutiful subjects, the Senate of Canada in Parliament assembled, beg leave to offer our humble thanks to Your Excellency for the gracious Speech which Your Excellency has addressed to both Houses of Parliament.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Bills
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Motions
Order No. 2 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kinsella, seconded by the Honourable Senator Oliver, for the second reading of Bill S-8, An Act to amend the Broadcasting Act.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Murray, P.C., that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Other
Orders No. 4 (inquiry), 4 (motion), 3 (inquiry), 3 and 5 (motions) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Kenny, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wiebe:
That the Senate do resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Tuesday, October 29, 2002, in order to receive Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, former Commanding Officer, 3 Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group, Canadian Forces Battle Group in Afghanistan, February to July 2002, for the purpose of discussing the preparation and training prior to deployment as well as the experiences of the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan in the war on terrorism.
That television cameras be authorized in the Chamber to broadcast the proceedings of the Committee of the Whole, with the least possible disruption of the proceedings.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Banks moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins, that the motion be amended in the first paragraph thereof:
by replacing the words "Tuesday, October 29, 2002'' by the words "Tuesday, November 5, 2002, at 4:00 p.m.''; and
by adding after the words "Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, former Commanding Officer, 3 Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group, Canadian Forces Battle Group in Afghanistan, February to July 2002'' the words "and Brigadier-General Michel Gauthier, former Commander Canadian Joint Task Force Southwest Asia, February to October 2002''.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 (inquiry) and 7 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Report of the Old Port of Montreal Corporation Inc., together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 150(1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-119.
Report of the Canada Lands Company Limited for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Alternative Fuels Act, S.C. 1995, c. 20, s. 8.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-120.
Report of the Department of Transport for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2). —Sessional Paper No. 2/37-121.
Report on the implementation of the Convention on Combating Bribery of Foreign Public Officials in International Business Transactions, and the enforcement of the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, pursuant to the Corruption of Foreign Public Officials Act, S.C. 1998, c. 34, s. 12.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-122.
Report of the Canadian Food Inspection Agency, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Canadian Food Inspection Agency Act, S.C. 1997, c. 6, s. 23.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-123.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 3:42 p.m. the Senate was continued until 9:00 a.m. tomorrow.)
____________________________________________________________
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and Commerce
The names of the Honourable Senators Robichaud, Fraser and De Bané substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Hervieux-Payette, Kroft and Poulin (October 23).
The names of the Honourable Senators Sparrow and Stollery substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Robichaud and De Bané (October 24).
Standing Senate Committee on Foreign Affairs
The names of the Honourable Senators Mahovlich and Phalen substituted for those of the Honourable Senators Corbin and Grafstein (October 23).
The name of the Honourable Senator Smith substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool (October 24).